Talk:Kaio-ken
Kaio-ken multiplication Why isnt X2, X3, X4, X20, and Super Kaio-ken in the alternet names? :Because the first four you mentioned are just the same move powered up, and the last has its own article. 19:24, May 16, 2010 (UTC) On a related note, it says in the description that the Kaio Ken doubles the users power level, but isn't that only Kaio-Kenx2? I know each higher numbered Kaio-Ken multiplies by that number, but what does Kaio-Kenx1 do?--Black kille 04:13, September 25, 2010 (UTC) : I think that Kaio-Ken normally multiplies by 1.5 and each number after that multiplies by the number specified. - [[User:StratusX|'Stratus'X]] '-' [[User talk:StratusX|'talk']] 22:23, September 25, 2010 (UTC) :: :: I don't know. I think that, based on the way they're named, Kaio-Ken has X effect, and each multiple after the original is a multiple of the original effect. It's listed that the original Kaio-Ken doubled Goku's power on a site referenced by this site when discussing the Super Saiyan power level increase. By that logic, Kaio-Ken x20 represents either an increase of power 20x, or, by calculator math, multiplying by 21 (the 1 to represent the base power level of Goku before applying the increase). That, or 20 doublings, 2 to the power of 20, which gets pretty retarded pretty quickly. :: -GothicSilencer 06:53, December 12, 2010 (UTC) Question How come the first time Goku uses it (it's mistranslated on purpose, which Roshi ends up yelling at him for), it's never mentioned? I'm talking about the one in the original Dragon Ball. However, this is not the same technique, and should probably be put in an article, probably called "Kaio-ken (Dragon Ball)", or "Kyo-ken", since Kyo-ken is what Goku mistranslates the move to. : Goku doesn't learn the Kaio-ken until the Saiyan Saga, so it's not a mistranslation of this technique, or any that I can think of or remember. Can you give the episode where it happens? Perhaps then we could ascertain what technique was attempted. 02:13, June 24, 2010 (UTC) : No, it's definetley a mistranslation. It's even clearly said it was. I don't remember the episode, though. I saw it in the manga, so I wouldn't know. Dragon Ball Volume 4: Strongest Under the Heavens Tale 47: The Kamehameha Master Roshi, disguised as Jackie Chun uses a technique that either makes him drunk or he acts drunk. Afterwards, Goku starts running around with an angry face and kicks Roshi in the back, in the following part, he says it's his Kyo-ken, which Goku thinks means Mad Fury. Roshi then says "You've got your martial arts words wrong!! Kyo-ken means MAD DOG, idiot!". : Hmm, okay I know what you mean now. Mad Dog Fist is a page already. If the mistake isn't there already, you can go ahead and add it. 02:52, June 24, 2010 (UTC) raging blast i have noticed that when you play as goku's base foem and use the kaio-ken he says the name wrong. but when goes x2 and x3 he says it right. 03:32, August 8, 2010 (UTC) Image caption Every time I insert a caption for the infobox image, it doesn't show up. DragonShenron 04:55, October 2, 2010 (UTC) : It appears when you hold your mouse over the image briefly. That is how the caption for the inforboxes is coded right now. 06:42, October 2, 2010 (UTC) : : Thanks! DragonShenron 06:12, October 3, 2010 (UTC) Kaioken x49 lemmie explain something. If a Super Saiyan increases a Saiyan's power 50fold a Kaioken x50 would make sense instead of a Kaioken x49 Besides it use to be 50 why all of a sudden the change?) Toa Kazi----- EDDIE!!! :Kaio-ken (normal) doubles the power of the user. Kaio-ken X2 adds twice as much, for a total of three times the original power. X3 quadruples the users power, and so on until X49 creates X50 power, the same as the Super Saiyan transformation. 23:59, January 11, 2011 (UTC) Makes no sense but ok I will play along. I will just have to be very careful when I am reading articles here. Toa Kazi----- EDDIE!!! 10x, may I ask how you come to this conclusion? When is it stated that Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are different? When is Kaio-Ken x2 even stated? UberDarkGuardian 04:05, June 4, 2011 (UTC) It does seem odd, since, if X3 did quadruple Goku's power, in his fight with Vegeta, his power level should've been 32,000 instead of 24,000. Dbrainstorm 08:25, June 4, 2011 (UTC) I think the moderators and administrators just want to be right, honestly. They have no sound, logical backing, even with what the Daizenshuu states. UberDarkGuardian 17:10, June 5, 2011 (UTC) I tried to tell them......... Kazi22 03:57, June 7, 2011 (UTC) Go all the way down, to the VERY bottom. You will see that 10x and I have resolved the issue. UberDarkGuardian 03:58, June 7, 2011 (UTC) Goku's continued use of Kaio-Ken Correct me if I am wrong, but at least in the English Dub of Dragon Ball-Z, there is a moment where Goku is fighting either Cell or Buu and, someone (I think Tien) asks King Kai why Goku isn't using Kaio-Ken. King Kai replys that he has been using it the whole time, he just does it so quickly we don't hear it. Kind of like how he uses the Kamehameha without calling it every time. I was under the impression that by the end of DBZ goku had used Kaio-Ken x 100 or even higher. But I have no idea why I thought that right now. It may be completely wrong about that part. I no longer have access to the videos (I had them all on VHS and I don't want to download them), but could someone maybe look into this and fix the article appropriately. : Might you, by any chance, be remembering this one wrong? Tien was with King Kai during the Namek, Captain Ginyu and Frieza Sagas. And yes. He says King Kai something like "he still can use Kaio-ken, right?" when Goku was being dominated by Frieza. Because Tien didn't know Goku was already using Kaio-ken. So, King Kai informs him that Goku had been using Kaio-ken already (at x20), yet he still was no match against Frieza. And don't you please forget to sign your posts by putting four tildes at the end of them. - 21:09, June 3, 2011 (UTC) Actually, Goku had only been using a x10 when King Kai said that (at least, that's how it was in DBZ Kai) Dbrainstorm 08:31, June 4, 2011 (UTC) : I'm pretty sure it was x20 in Dragon Ball Z (Japanese dub) - 09:23, June 4, 2011 (UTC) : The manga said it was 10X. I have not watched the japanese dub. 09:26, June 4, 2011 (UTC) : Is that so? I think I'll have to check it again. It's been awhile I have seen that epsiode maybe it's me who remembers wrong. But the points stands still. It was never stated that Goku was using Kaio-ken during the Kid Buu Saga. - 09:32, June 4, 2011 (UTC) : Yeah he never used it in the Kid Buu saga, but I guess in the manga it may be a translation mistake. 09:42, June 4, 2011 (UTC) : Okay. When Tienshinhan first brings up he can use Kaio-ken as he didn't know Goku was already using it, King Kai states he was using 10x Kaio-ken. (See Episode 90). Goku later starts using 20x Kaio-ken in Episode 91. My bad. But then again, he's never seen using this technique again, once he upgraded to Super Saiyan. - 10:02, June 4, 2011 (UTC) : : There was no point using it after Super Saiyan, Since Kai-oken put strain on a person's heart and body to use, while Super Saiyan didn't. The Kaio-ken 20X Kamehameha was the last time Kaio-ken was really used. If this page get's that 50X guy, will you (Kill You) protect this page? 10:10, June 4, 2011 (UTC) Sure thing. Any page which gets vandalised regularly should be protected. - 10:15, June 4, 2011 (UTC) Kaio-Ken multipliers Would someone please explain to me what the Kaio-Ken multipliers are? Because apparently on this wiki, with the Kaio-Ken x49 and Kaio-Ken x50, there is an extra Kaio-Ken level somewhere in there. With the series stating that the basic Kaio-Ken is the Kaio-Ken x2, or rather the user's base power level doubled, combined with the Daizenshuu's numbers here: http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=list I don't understand where this new system of multiplication comes from. UberDarkGuardian 05:44, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :"With the series stating that the basic Kaio-Ken is the Kaio-Ken x2..." This is where I think the confusion is coming from. Basic Kaio-ken does double the power, but Goku uses Kaio-ken x2 as a different, more powerful move. 06:18, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :I never really got how Kaio-ken worked. I mean, it was clear that when Goku came back from King Kai's Planet, He had a max power level of 8,000 (The right version!) and Vegeta at the time had a power of 18,000. So when Goku goes Kaio-ken, He would go 16,000. Kaio-ken 2x would be more then 18,000, so why did Goku need to go Kaio-ken 3X to surpass Vegeta? 06:24, June 6, 2011 (UTC) I'll post this here, from my talk page. I can't seem to find a flaw in it.. however, I'm open to discussion! (Well, here: http://www.mangareader.net/105-2876-4/dragon-ball/chapter-227.html King Kai states that Goku should never take it above x2. Here: http://www.mangareader.net/105-2877-8/dragon-ball/chapter-228.html Goku states Kaio-Ken simply. Here: http://www.mangareader.net/105-2878-3/dragon-ball/chapter-229.html Goku actually states x2. Here: http://www.mangareader.net/105-2879-7/dragon-ball/chapter-230.html Goku states Kaio-Ken x3. Here: http://www.mangareader.net/105-2879-9/dragon-ball/chapter-230.html We get Goku's power level based off of Bulma's scouter. Being that the first stated reading is 17,000 (and cuts out at 21,000), and Goku's highest base power is >8,000, this would mean that the Kaio-Ken x3 is in fact x3 Goku's base power, while Kaio-Ken x2 (or just Kaio-Ken) puts Goku's power level at >16,000 but <17,000. This is further supported because Goku is barely on-par with Vegeta using the Kaio-Ken (or your Kaio-Ken x2), but when he uses x3 he dominates Vegeta.) UberDarkGuardian 06:36, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :Thank you for the links, they are a good direct source that normal Kaio-ken (double power) is indeed different from Kaio-ken x2. The scouter bit appears to be based on some heavy speculation about everyone fighting at 100% power for all of every fight... which is not true. 06:56, June 6, 2011 (UTC) The ONLY possible scenario I can see where Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are different is if (and only if) Kaio-Ken is x1.5 base power. Even then, Kaio-Ken x2 would be equal to x2 base power, and Kaio-Ken x50 would be equal to Super Saiyan, not Kaio-Ken x49. UberDarkGuardian 06:42, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :It is a directly sourced fact that they are different. Now where did 1.5 come from? Please don't speculate here. Kaio-ken is said to be double power, and x2 is something else. The only thing that makes sense is that a x2 adds x2 as much power. 06:58, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :Yes, I have realized this previously. The speculation of Goku's power level, though.. We know Vegeta's maximum was 18,000, and we can safely say that he wouldn't drop much, if at all, from fighting a weaker warrior (perhaps 1,000, maybe 2,000 given a few of the beatings). Goku's base power level of 8,000 would have to drop to at least 5,000 for him to need to quadruple it to 20,000 to stay ahead of Vegeta, and while Goku wasn't exactly winning, he also was NOT getting completely dominated. :To support my point, you should look at the Daizenshuu's numbers. :I'll just post them. : Goku (suppressed): 5,000 M-19 --at full power: Over 8,000 M-19 --Kaio-ken x2: Over 16,000 M-20 --Kaio-ken x3: Over 24,000 M-20 --Kaio-ken x4: Over 32,000 M-20; D7-p.83 It is, in no way, implied that there is an extra multiplier for Kaio-Ken x2. It is x2 power. Kaio-Ken's effect is unlisted because we never find it out.. or do we? These are from the battle on Namek. Goku (suppressed): 5,000 M-24 --true power: 90,000 M-24; D7-p.83 --Kaio-ken: 180,000 M-24 Thus, how much can we really speculate? and how much do we really know? Lastly, the battle with Freeza. Goku: 3,000,000 D7-p.83 --Kaio-ken x10: 30,000,000 D7-p.83 --Kaio-ken x20: 60,000,000 D7-p.83 --Super Saiyan: 150,000,000 D7-p.83 Super Saiyan is x50, Kaio-Ken x10 is x10, Kaio-Ken x20 is x20. Clearly I'm missing the whole "extra multiplier" thing... I apologize for the retarded formatting! UberDarkGuardian 07:19, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :I have already noted that Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are different (or, rather, I have now on my talk page.), however no where is it stated that Kaio-Ken (no multiplier stated) itself is a x2 power boost. King Kai simply states to never take it OVER x2 Goku's base power, implying that x2 Goku's power is a multiplier of Kaio-Ken BEYOND the base Kaio-Ken. Also, a x2 multiplier doesn't necessarily add x2 as much power. It is a multiplier and should be treated as such. UberDarkGuardian 07:18, June 6, 2011 (UTC) All of these numbers work for the current revision if everyone fights the same way they have throughout the series, conserving power rather than wasting it by being at 100% for hours long fights, as well as the base Kaio-ken power multiplier. It also works assuming they are able to maintain 100% power for hours, which they probably aren't, but it contradicts the series. It's not that I think you're wrong, it's just that the facts support the article as written. Also, no offense, but you're changing your stuff all around, which makes it kinda hard to take your word for anything: "With the series stating that the basic Kaio-Ken is the Kaio-Ken x2, or rather the user's base power level doubled" "I have already noted that Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are different (or, rather, I have now on my talk page.), however no where is it stated that Kaio-Ken (no multiplier stated) itself is a x2 power boost." That pretty much kills your credibility for this one. I'll be back tomorrow if anyone finds something new. 07:45, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :I changed my argument accordingly after reading the manga (hence the, "or rather, I have '''now..."). Yes, I honestly thought that Kaio-Ken was always a x2 multiplier, and my original argument reflected that. No, I'm not denying that I changed my argument, however an argument will change with new information. Anyway, I went back here and looked and found that while Kaio-Ken x2 exists, and we are given that Goku should not use more than x2 his base power, so Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are not the same... but then, we still don't know what the difference between Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 is, especially given the numbers from the Daizenshuu (which is an official source.. establishing credibility - did you even look at the numbers from the Daizenshuu? just wondering) which state that Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are the same... There is no getting around that Kaio-Ken x2 is a x2 power boost. Also (after reading from Goku's training with King Kai through the battle with Vegeta) there is, in fact, no statement which states that the Kaio-Ken (no multiplier) is a x2 power boost. Honestly. If the Daizenshuu power levels are based upon maximum power levels, then Kaio-Ken x2 is x2, Kaio-Ken x3 is x3, and so on. My point is, you are trying to add in an extra multiplier that makes no sense when even multipliers (x10, x20) don't act like (x11, x21), but rather as they should (x10, x20). I'm not trying to attack anyone, or you, directly. The article written reflects my numbers, without an extra multiplier. :Also, your assumption the fights are hours long... If you were to piece together fights with only the fighting scenes and none of the filler or other people's perspectives, the actual fights (and by fight I mean one vs one fights) would be very short, with the battles of SSJ2 Goku vs Majin Vegeta and the Buu fights being longest (IIRC.. don't remember the Ginyu battles or the length of the Freeza battle). UberDarkGuardian 22:19, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :3x 10x, you aren't exactly countering my argument with your own facts, you know... You're simply stating that I am incorrect. Would you please establish some form of source? (As it stands, you would have 0 credibility due to lack of sourcing.) UberDarkGuardian 22:24, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :Last thing I'm going to post, from that Kanzentai website, which reflects the numbers from the Daizenshuu and the manga. "With even the Kaio-ken x2 being ineffective, Goku brings out Kaio-ken x3. His rapidly rising battle power causes Bulma's converted scouter to break as it surpasses 21,000. Going by the rule that each grade of Kaio-ken multiplies Goku's battle power by the number given, with a regular power of a little over 8,000, Goku's Kaio-ken x3 battle power should be something around 24,000. At this level, Goku finally manages to overwhelm Vegeta, but his body can't handle the power, and after knocking Vegeta back with a Kaio-ken x4 Kamehameha, he becomes almost completely paralyzed." UberDarkGuardian 22:59, June 6, 2011 (UTC) "With the series stating that the basic Kaio-Ken is the Kaio-Ken x2, or rather the user's base power level doubled" "I have already noted that Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are different (or, rather, I have now on my talk page.), however no where is it stated that Kaio-Ken (no multiplier stated) itself is a x2 power boost." "...which state that Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are the same" You've now gone back and forth twice now... I think you might benefit by taking a step back, maybe reread the sources and conversation, and reassess a little. "you aren't exactly countering my argument with your own facts, you know... You're simply stating that I am incorrect" Okay well now I know that you're missing some parts. Let me restate copy-paste some stuff for you and hopefully you'll take a moment to reflect upon your very uninformed comment. *Thank you for the links, they are a good direct source that normal Kaio-ken (double power) is indeed different from Kaio-ken x2. - manga *There is indeed a huge noticeable difference between Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2, which is that Goku refers to them as separate moves. - manga *The scouter bit appears to be based on some heavy speculation about everyone fighting at 100% power for all of every fight... which is not true. - obvious for readers/viewers *All of these numbers... - Daizenshuu 7 *During the Vegeta Saga, Goku uses the Kaio-ken, and then uses a variant which is more powerful and which Goku recognizes as such, the Kaio-ken x2. The question then arises: what does the x2 refer to? If it were the user's power, then Goku would not become more powerful with this variant than he becomes when using a regular Kaio-ken, and since he does, we can clearly rule this out. Since the x2 mathematically refers to multiplication, the only other simple possibility is multiplication of the power added. The pattern must then be x1=double power, x2=triple power, x4=quadruple power, and so on. This is why even though x50 Kaio-ken giving Goku x50 power seems obviously true, a closer inspection makes it impossible. - manga, anime, simple math By the way, Kanzentai is partially using Daizenshuu 7, but it's a fan site and the author has done the math on his own based on speculation that Kaio-ken multipliers work with the aforementioned contradiction. Therefore your use of those multiples on the basis that Kanzentai did it begs the question. To back your argument, I'll accept nothing short of an official source which carries more weight than Goku quotes from the manga. I haven't seen that yet, and am unconvinced because of this. 02:15, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ... Okay. We're on the same page now. *You did read the links, which I did miss. I apologize for this slip. *Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are not the same. *Kaio-Ken (with no multiplier stated) is, in fact, never clarified on the power multiplier. This is true, I'm almost sure of it. Like I said, I re-read the entire manga section from Goku's training with King Kai until after the battle with Vegeta. (It's open on another tab, actually) May I have missed it? Yes, won't lie. Nonetheless, we don't have it here. *I admit, I agree with you on the judgment of Kanzentai. SO... If we go by the Daizenshuu's numbers alone, Goku's max power was >8,000, and his Kaio-Ken x4 power was >32,000, which means Kaio-Ken x4 is, in fact, x4 base power, thus Kaio-Ken x3 and x2 are x3 and x2 base power, respectively. *"...Since the x2 mathematically refers to multiplication, the only other simple possibility is multiplication of the power added...." Also speculation, since we don't (officially, if we re-work the argument and take out all of my various screw-ups / changes) have the basic Kaio-Ken multiplier stated here... from an official source. *You contradicted yourself. "''...x1=double power, x2=triple power, '''x4=quadruple power..." UberDarkGuardian 02:52, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :Lol, it wasn't a contradiction I assure you, just a typo. From the pattern, one may see that I meant "...x1=double power, x2=triple power, x3=quadruple power power..." :Now, upon some research, I've stumbled upon something very interesting on Kanzentai: ::"'Chapter 229; Page 01; Panel 01 ::Narrator: 'Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!' ::The narrator explains here how Goku's Kaio-ken technique works. The normal Kaio-ken doubles Goku's battle power. So what does the Kaio-ken x2 that Goku goes on to use against Vegeta do? ::Well, to skip ahead a bit, the Kaio-ken x10 is said to increase Goku's strength ten times. In addition, Goku's Kaio-ken x4 battle power at this point is given in Daizenshuu 7 as being 32,000, four times his regular power of 8,000. So if the Kaio-ken x10 increases his power times ten and the Kaio-ken x4 increases it four-fold, you'd think the Kaio-ken x2 would likewise double his power, but that's what the narrator says the regular Kaio-ken does. This would imply that regular Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 are one and the same, but Goku seems to imply that they're different things, since he tries one and then the other in a futile attempt to gain the upper hand against Vegeta. It would seem that this is one of Toriyama's mistakes."'' :It seems that someone else has considered both our arguments and concluded that this is an inconsistency! Our evidence, though conflicting, is all somehow valid. Very exciting, as inconsistencies are somewhat rare, I can add this information to the article, unless there is something wrong with the above. 03:29, June 7, 2011 (UTC) Page 229, like I said, I missed it! And, after seeing that... wow. Talk about a fail. I'm honestly stumped by this. Though I have to ask, if everything EXCEPT the Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 line up with what I've stated.. where does this put us? Also, about the Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2, it may be that Goku simply stated the x2 due to his.. well, idiolect. He pronounces some things incorrectly, does he not? So, would he know to not state something when it is redundant? Probably just a Toriyama mishap though. UberDarkGuardian 03:36, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :What we can do here is state that there is a plot inconsistency with Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 based on the evidence shown, but that Kaio-ken x3 and above all consistently multiply the user's power level by the respective multipliers. The idiolect factor is a good idea, but since x2 was thought to somehow be a step up, we're best off simply presenting all the information we have, then letting the readers arrive at their own conclusions. 03:49, June 7, 2011 (UTC) Alright, sounds good to me. Hey, 10x, wanted to thank you for the argument. Won't lie, it was a lot of fun, even though I did goof a lot. lol. UberDarkGuardian 03:52, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :It's all good, I'm happiest when the info is all correct. 04:20, June 7, 2011 (UTC) Kaio-Ken multipliers for explanation, this is the final decision 10x Kamehameha and I have found that there is an inconsistency between Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2. While it is true that they SHOULD be the same thing, they are in fact different. However, that said, every Kaio-Ken multiplier beyond that (x3, x4, x10, etc) is correct. x3 is x3 power, x4 is x4 power, x10 is x10 power. I hope this clears everything up. UberDarkGuardian 04:01, June 7, 2011 (UTC) Kaio-ken and Super Saiyan LAST CHECK, I wanted to make sure.. Kaio-Ken x50 and Super Saiyan are the same thing, right? UberDarkGuardian 03:55, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :I'm not sure how you mean. The power level should theoretically be the same, but it's likely that Goku's body couldn't handle his natural maximum power being instantaneously multiplied by 50 (hence the need for a transformation upon reaching Super Saiyan levels). Everything else is likely different as follows. Emotionally, Super Saiyan changes the user drastically, while Kaio-ken doesn't have any emotional impact (beyond the x50 associated pain, ouch!). Mentally/intellectually, Super Saiyan, after the first time, would probably be vastly superior since there's no pain to cope with. The biggest difference is the duration of the technique, since Kaio-ken lasts for "a heartbeat" and quickly drains all of the users power if used in succession, while a practiced (Full Power) Super Saiyan transformation can last for days with virtually no latent power usage. We can't say anything about strength, speed, or senses, so it's best not to assume they are equivalent. 04:20, June 7, 2011 (UTC) Power level wise. Sorry, wasn't specific. UberDarkGuardian 04:25, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :If possible, probably yes. That's just my speculation on the topic though, lol, no sources. 04:39, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :Lol, SPECULATION... But you know, when Goku used the Super Kaio-Ken, which is Super Saiyan and Kaio-Ken.. so Super Saiyan x2, that would have been similar to Kaio-Ken x100... Perhaps Goku would be able to handle Kaio-Ken x50 well... too many possibilities. :Super Saiyan > Kaio-Ken x50, Super Saiyan 2 > Super Kaio-Ken > Kaio-Ken x100 (rofl). UberDarkGuardian 05:00, June 7, 2011 (UTC) Pretty interesting lol. Keep in mind that Super Kaio-ken is x2 Goku's transformed SS body's normal limit, whereas Kaio-ken x50 would be x50 Goku's normal body's limit. 05:12, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :True, but at the same time, it's a massive quantity of power when in his SSJ body that would be the norm for his SSJ2 body, so it's actually not proportional.. in theory. UberDarkGuardian 05:16, June 7, 2011 (UTC) Goku's transformations change his "natural" limit during that time, same as Frieza. Super Kaio-ken, btw, one of my favorite techniques. I was so happy when Goku finally brought back the Kaio-ken. 05:18, June 7, 2011 (UTC) True... hm. Too much to go through. Super Kaio-Ken is definitely a favorite though. UberDarkGuardian 05:25, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :Super Kaio-Ken is definitely my favorite filler :) Tokeupdude 08:21, July 11, 2011 (UTC) Otherworld tournament was a favorite here too : D 09:29, July 11, 2011 (UTC) Difference between Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken times 2... I got the difference.... just as while writing √x we don't mention that its 2 root x similarly while shouting Kaio-ken goku doesn't mention that its Kaio-ken x2 14:39, July 5, 2011 (UTC) :Nah, UberDarkGuardian thought that at a few points too, but it can't be the case. See, Goku uses Kaio-ken to fight Vegeta, but when it's not good enough, he uses Kaio-ken times 2 (by name) and it's shown to be more powerful than Kaio-ken alone. 21:34, July 5, 2011 (UTC) :Yeah, as with what 10x said, Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are not the same ONLY because he changes what he says, implying they are different. We assume it is an inconsistency with Toriyama's writing. UberDarkGuardian 16:20, July 13, 2011 (UTC) :In the NES game Dragon Ball Z: Kyôshū! Saiyan, there is the Kaio-ken, the Kaio-ken x2, the Kaio-ken x3, and the Kaio-ken x4. Jeangabin666 17:51, August 21, 2011 (UTC) the maximum kaio-ken It has been clearly mentioned in the manga by Tien that the Kaio-ken can be raised maximum to x20.. Its the limit of the technique.. THATHS THE REASON GOKU DIDN'T TAKE IT AHEAD AGAINST FRIEZA... thats why after kaio ken x10 he relied on kaio ken x20 since he couldn't take it further... But is it true that the maximum Kaio-ken can be raised to is x20 since a lot of people are suugesting the Kaio ken can be raised to be over x20........ Proof:- http://www.mangareader.net/105-2961-14/dragon-ball/chapter-312.html Page no. 14 of 14 Tien says:- "...... the maximum Kaioken : times 20" 00:37, September 22, 2011 (UTC) :That translation doesn't seem very good. A few panels later: "You're telling me that Goku is losing, even with Kaioken times 10?!" http://www.mangareader.net/105-2962-7/dragon-ball/chapter-313.html 02:36, September 22, 2011 (UTC) difference between kaio ken and kaio ken x2 I think i have figured out how they are different . so i think that the kaio ken would just be 100% of the users original power level added on so the 2x kaio ken would be 200% added on 3x would be 300% added on. so if the power level is 10 then kaio ken would be (100% of 10 = 10) (10+10=20) kaio ken x2 would be ( 200% of 10 = 20) (10 +20 = 30) x3 (300% of 10 =30 ) (10+30=40) anybody else understand what im saying? Quackulon The Duck Tyrant (talk) 00:23, September 28, 2012 (UTC) :Nah, it's just an inconsistency. There are manga quotes saying that normal is double power, and x4 is four times power (Goku jumps from 8000 to 32000 power level). It also says that x2 Kaio-ken is better than normal Kaio-ken, so Toriyama simply overlooked his math. 02:11, September 28, 2012 (UTC)